<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Or, heaven forbid - what if you had put in playground equipment? Would PTA take that, too? <hr></blockquote>

Actually, we did pay for a new playground last summer. I was wondering how they would confiscate that!

I did contact the IRS and get a new EIN, and am sending in form 8718 (User fee for exempt organization determination) today. We are planning to open a new checking account under the PTO name next week, and are hiring a CPA to complete 501(c)(3) paperwork.

Does anyone know where I can find procedures for dissolving a PTA? They (District PTA) are telling us what we have to turn over to them, but I haven't been able to find it in writing.

Thanks, everyone, for all your support and suggestions!
Linda

Fair enough, KC -

I guess the crux of the issue is what the PTA has rightful claim to upon dissolution. I agree with you that that the PTA name and PTA services have value, and I totally respect groups that choose the PTA option.

But it just seems unreasonable -- and I'd even wager that it's a misreading of what the bylaws actually say -- to say that the local group has to forfeit any/all property to the state upon dissolution. Again, if this were true, it would basically be like a pair of you-can-never-leave handcuffs on a local unit. That's the unreasonable part.

Forfeit the books? Perhaps (but I'd certainly keep a copy locally, as if there any problems, those problems will be local). Give up the PTA nonprofit status? Absolutely. Change checking accounts to a new, PTO-based tax id# and stop all *future* uses of PTA name and services? Sure. Return unused membership cards? Fine.

But rip up guidebooks you've already paid for this year or -- worse yet -- in previous years? No. (Should we also propose some mind reversal so that the local PTAers have to forget everything they learned while they were a PTA?) Give up the coffee pot or the copy machine? I don't think so.

Importantly, the vast majority of the folks who donated to your PTA or supported all of your fundraisers were supporting the local unit far more than the state PTA. I'd wager not a single fundraising or donation flyer mentioned supporting the state PTA office. Instead, they all mentioned "supporting our kids/teachers/school" or "helping provide the best for our school". So there's no misrepresentation involved. In fact, sending the funds to the state would probably be a bigger misrepresentation than any other option.

I hear you, KC, on the van or the playground or the mural -- most of those things (if purchased by the PTA) are donated outright. But sometimes they are not. I know a lot of groups that maintain their own copy machine, certainly a big ticket item. Know others with popcorn machines and Ellison/AccuCut machines that they own outright. It's definitley a significant issue for those groups.

I guess I'm up to $0.04 today.

Tim

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>KCSwan and I usually agree on most/all of this stuff, but here we disagree. I don't think it's reasonable.<hr></blockquote>

Welllllllllll...now there is a difference between being "reasonable" and "not totally unreasonable". Seeing their viewpoint and agreeing with their viewpoint is two different things.

By the same token, there is a difference between "value" and "price". I do not think the name value of PTA is without value. I will not argue with any group that determines the price exceeds the value.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>A coffee pot is a ridiculous example, but what if the group had purchased a van for the special needs kids at school or a beautiful framed mural for the cafeteria? <hr></blockquote>

A coffee pot is probably still the property of the PTA. In order for the school to use that van, their insurance carrier would require them to take ownership from the PTA (same rules apply with playgrounds also, Mover). In most schools, once you hang that mural on the cafeteria wall, it becomes the property of the school.

While taking your coffee pots may well be petty, the odds are that anything of significant value has already passed title to the school anyway. The exception here is that some groups take pains to prevent the transfer of ownership, because once the district owns it they have the right to move it to another school. If that is the case here, Snow's PTA may need to accept title transfer and trust the school district.

Or, heaven forbid - what if you had put in playground equipment? Would PTA take that, too? I can just see the looks on the faces of all the kids who sold wrapping paper, candy bars, cookie dough. . . you get the point . . standing there watching as the PTA from the state or national level dug that up. (I've heard about a guy sitting in a 200 year old tree so it won't get cut down and that picture is in my head with these kids all on the playground equipment!)

Stick to your guns and let us know how we can help.

Hi Snow -

It's too bad, but you are far from alone in feeling real pressure and negativity from state PTA folks when announcing a change.

My first advice is to remember that you've done nothing wrong, in the big sense of wrong. You and your fellow parent volunteers are still doing great work and you really care about kids. That's the most important thing. Drives me crazy when there's an implication that volunteers go from great to awful, by virtue of an acronym change. It's the furthest thing from the truth.

Now, the second part is more touchy, and it really depends on which path you want to follow. While it's certainly a possibility to just maintain your PTA for this year while getting your ducks in a row, it doesn't sound like that's what you guys want to do. That said, it is a possibility. You could stay an "official" PTA with a handful of members while you work to wind down the group. It's even possible to start your PTO at the same time. Some groups do this, and then run all their fundRAISERS through the PTO and all the fundSPENDERS through the PTA until the PTA budget is down to zero.

On the other hand, you guys seem to have already decided to "go" PTO. And you *should* have no problem doing so. You're big boys and girls and you're not hostages. I'm not a lawyer and I don't have a copy of the specific California PTA bylaws (check yours -- they're the official guide, not the word of an officer on the phone), but it sounds like you guys have not officially dibanded yet. If that's the case, you should be able to donate most of your property to your school right now. You could spend down your bank account by purchasing needed items for your school/kids/programs. You and the state PTA (should) share a desire to see your work go to benefit the kids, so there shouldn't be much conflict (and if there is conflict -- you should win) provided you're doing things for the kids.

Finally, I'd say that I've yet to come a cross a case where all the threats have actually been tested. Your coffee pot, for example, is a great example of ridiculousness here. I'm not sure that demand (and others like it) is legally correct. I'd love to find out. I know for sure that it wouldn't stand up in the court of public relations or public opinion. It's just silly.

KCSwan and I usually agree on most/all of this stuff, but here we disagree. I don't think it's reasonable. Yes, this local PTA benefitted from the PTA name, but: 1) they paid (dues) for that benefit; and 2) the local members did a lot more work to get that coffee pot than did the PTA name. If this silly demand were correct, then every group that joins the PTA better plan on staying a PTA forever, else they'll be forced/asked to give up everything they've purchased over the years. A coffee pot is a ridiculous example, but what if the group had purchased a van for the special needs kids at school or a beautiful framed mural for the cafeteria?

I'm done, Snow, but I'll just finish by saying thanks for working so hard for kids. Remember that you guys are doing great things, even if you're treated like criminals over the next few months.

Good luck,

Tim

I am not a lawyer. . . but . . . what do you think about after following KCSwan's advice, and then setting up your PTO organization, selling the assets of your current group for a nominal amount to the new one. Once your PTO has money, buy the coffee pots for $1.00 each, purchase any other "assets" for nominal sums. Of course all this while spending down what's in the PTA treasury and building up the PTO. My guess is you'll have to continue to have PTA meetings until you disband, but I doubt you have to have them as regularly as you have had in the past. What I am thinking is have monthly PTO meetings and quarterly PTO meetings, not holding them simultaneously. Just a thought, never having been involved in PTA.

Good luck - and KCSwan is right - there are many here who have walked in your shoes before and are more experienced and very willing to help you through this.